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Imagining battery-powered trucking seems easier these days. Cool, sleek semis seem to be all over the trucking news and, even, dotting the popular press. But what about real business? Are electric vehicles REALLY poised to break through in commercial transportation? Other alternative fuels have held similar promises: to cut fuel costs, eliminate emissions, and find parity with diesel. So, Transport Topics' Managing Editor of Features, Seth Clevenger wonders, what makes electric different -- and more viable? To get his answer, the journalist heads to a top industry researcher and the head of a business unit at a major engine manufacturer known for engineering DIESEL technologies. What they say about infrastructure, the power grid, engineering and maintenance, investment, and the opportunity timeline may surprise you. Listen.


Mike has worked in the commercial vehicle industry for over 30 years, is the Executive Director of the North American Council for Freight Efficiency and leads the Trucking Efficiency Operations for the Rocky Mountain Institute / Carbon War Room.  Mike’s specialty is brokering green truck collaborative technologies into the real world at scale.

Julie Furber is the Executive Director of the Electrified Power business segment at Cummins. She is responsible for overseeing the development and acceleration of Cummins knowledge and capability in electrification, positioning the company to be the leading provider of electrified power in commercial markets.

Mike Roeth 

Julie Furber 

EP. 03

Brought to you by:

Guest Two, Julie Furber
Guest One, Mike Roeth

Episode Transcript


[00:00:01] From Transport Topics in Washington, D.C., this is RoadSigns.

This podcast is brought to you by International Truck. Now here is your host, Seth Clevenger:

Seth Clevenger: “Hello and thank you for listening to RoadSigns, the podcast series from Transport Topics that explores the major trends and technologies that will shape the future of the trucking industry. In this episode we're going to take a close look at the emergence of electric-powered vehicles and commercial transportation. Diesel, of course, has been trucking’s main fuel for many decades but now with the introduction of the first battery-electric trucks it's time to ask ourselves if we may finally be catching our first glimpse of diesel's eventual successor.

“If that is the case, how soon can it happen? Our electric vehicles really posed a breakthrough in commercial transportation. And will your next truck be a plug-in? We'll set out to answer these questions over the course of the show. We can start by considering the opportunities and the challenges. Electric trucks hold tremendous promise to cut fuel costs and eliminate emissions. But there are also a lot of questions including the vehicles’ range in cost and the added weight of the batteries. Later in the program we'll sort through some of those issues with Mike Roeth, executive director of the North American Council for Freight Efficiency. Despite the challenges, it's clear that manufacturers already believe in the potential of this technology. Truck makers and their suppliers generally are in agreement that vehicle electrification will be one of the dominant trends in the development of the trucks of tomorrow.

[00:01:30] “The major truck makers are all exploring this path and in some cases have already unveiled the first battery-electric models. Meanwhile, new players such as Tesla and Nikola Motor Company plan to enter the trucking industry with vehicles of their own. We also see key industry suppliers lining up to support this move toward vehicle electrification. One of those suppliers is Cummins, the largest manufacturer of diesel engines for the North American truck market. Despite its long history and successful diesel, the company has made it clear that it also sees electric power as an important part of its future. To understand why, we’re thrilled to bring in Julie Furber,   executive director of Cummins’ electrified power business. Thanks for joining us, Julie.”

Julie Furber: “Thank you.”

Clevenger: “Cummins, of course, has a long and proud history as a pioneer in diesel engines. You know, this is going all the way back to 1919. So just about a century now and over that time the company's name, you know, really has become synonymous with diesel engines, especially here in the trucking industry. So I have to ask you: Why did Cummins see that it was important to invest in vehicle electrification?”

Furber: “So I think, you know, I think diesel’s really been the answer to the commercial market's needs, both on- and off-highway for most of that 100 years. But as we go forward I think we can see that the world is changing and there's an opportunity with the advancements in technology and they know that the progress in the cost of that technology that actually there's an opportunity now to offer a variety of power solutions to customers to best meet their needs.

[00:03:04] “And certainly I think electrification both for electric and hybrid systems are a big piece of that. So I think, you know, for Cummins it's somewhat of an evolution to add those types of technologies into our portfolio much as we've done with natural gas in the past and going forward we expect maybe other types of solutions such as fuel cells to become part of our portfolio as well.”

Clevenger:  “OK, well, it'll be fascinating to watch. And speaking of electrification, Cummins last year showcased its Aeos concept truck. This is an all-electric Class 7 tractor that you guys showed at the company headquarters and it made the rounds at industry trade shows and it’s a really cool truck, it’s cool to see on the trade show floors. But, of course, that doesn't mean that Cummins is going to get into the truck manufacturing business. So maybe, Julie, you can take us through some of the types of systems and components that Cummins does see itself supplying to the manufacturers of electric trucks in the future.”

Furber: “Yes, sure. So, I mean, you're absolutely right. Yeah. Aeos … is a very cool vehicle but it really was a showcase for our systems and components as we go forward. So our plan is to provide both fully electric and hybrid systems to our OEM customers really accompanied by a suite of best-in-class components.

[00:04:23] “So we've been public already for acquisition of various plays in the battery pack market, so battery packs is very much part of our portfolio moving forward but also we're making investments in power electronics, motors and obviously with that you know utilizing knowledge we have in engines and controls to put together those systems so we're very confident they will be very well integrated and also accompanying that will be our service, global service and support and also connectivity and knowledge of battery materials itself. So we're hoping to be, you know, as we've been in diesel for many, many years as you mentioned before. We're hoping to be a leader in electrification through a depth of capability and technology.”

Clevenger: “Next let's talk about the market potential for electric trucks both now and in the future. So Julie, what trucking application do you think will be the first to begin deploying electric vehicles? Is there something that's going to start with use cases like local delivery and refuse operations where the vehicle can recharge overnight at the terminal?”

Furber: “Yeah. I think, great, great question. Great. Great comments. I think it's definitely gonna start with those applications that return to base because as you, as you rightly pointed out, there really isn't the public charging infrastructure in place for electric vehicles, commercial vehicles today. I think also we are definitely seeing more activity within the cities where they have particular needs for air quality improvements. So really those types of operations that operate in the cities that are fairly short routes. So, you know, between 100, 200 miles a day. So that will be pickup and delivery vehicles, refuse operations. We also see things like cement mixers but also where they … even within heavy duty truck. We are seeing some use cases such as port drayage trucks which fit nicely with the, with the technology that exists today in electrification and also support some of the air quality pushes in those air quality issue areas like the poor. So we are seeing a lot of activity there.” 


Clevenger: “OK. And looking at the longhaul trucking that really presents a greater challenge for electric trucks and when you really consider the need for charging infrastructure but you also see potential for that segment of the market for electric trucks?”

Furber: “Yes, so I think like [that] most certainly does present a great challenge and I would say technology itself today for fully electric trucks is really somewhat prohibitive for longhaul ‑‑ the weight of batteries, the cost of batteries just do not make it an economic or effective solution for trucking today as well as the need for charging infrastructure and the charging rates of batteries also present a barrier. So freely for quite a long way out we don't see that longhaul trucking will go fully electric. We do see there may be applications of certain hybrid technologies that can add efficiency and cost effectiveness to longhaul trucking and also allow them a proportion of zero-emissions operation. The other option, the other technology we see as a potential long-term technology that could apply in longhaul trucking is fuel cells. So at Cummins the good news is we continue to invest in all of those technologies. And right now we see that, you know, for the next several years diesel will be very hard to beat in that market.


Clevenger: “As you mentioned earlier, you know, prior to this current focus across the industry right now on electrification there was also diversification into natural gas-powered engines and Cummins, of course, was at the forefront of that. And we did see some, some growth in that segment that that niche market definitely has expanded especially while diesel prices were hovering around $4 a gallon. But in recent years lower domestic energy prices have really prevented the natural gas market from really taking off in trucking at least at the level that many had predicted several years ago. So do you see a similar scenario playing out with electric trucks where we have a lot of initial promise and some adoption but maybe not something that just sweeps across a large portion of the industry?”

Furber:  “I think it's a little different. I think there are four key drivers of adoption in each of location that we think a lot about. So one is the technology itself and I think the technologies come on tremendously in terms of energy density of batteries in terms of charging rates of batteries in terms of charging infrastructure technology itself. That has meant that it really is a very, very viable solution already today in several applications. I also think regulation is going to be a big driver and the minute we see zero-emission mandates, then it is going to be very difficult. It's difficult to see a scenario where electrification will not be adopted more widely. Also charging infrastructure we mentioned before is a big driver … when charging infrastructure gets put in place. I think that will drive adoption.

[00:09:58]”And finally, you know, the biggest factor and you talked about it when you talked about natural gas prices is that the TCO and I think you know we are getting close now to where some applications are starting to become TCO-positive and therefore there is both an economic incentive and also, you know, an environmental incentive to switch to electrification. So I do think it is a little different. Natural gas was a good alternative to diesel but it didn't offer complete zero emissions in a … we have near zero emissions in some of our natural gas engines but not complete zero emissions. And I think there was no real regulatory drive towards natural gas. It really was just built on an economic case either as you said these oil prices never really went to the level we, we saw but I think we can see many markets where electric offers a stability against gas prices which are, you know, which are somewhat volatile.


Clevenger: “And another piece of this overall equation when we look at that total cost of ownership is vehicle maintenance run at the architecture of an electric vehicle. At least on the surface in theory it seems like a simple system overall when you compare it to the latest and greatest diesel engines which, of course, are outfitted with a lot of emissions aftertreatment equipment to comply with regulations. So do you think that electric-powered trucks might actually reduce vehicle maintenance and downtime?”

Furber:  “I certainly think, yeah, I think you’re point’s right. They are definitely simpler systems, less moving parts, less mechanical parts and so our experience today with some of the some of the vehicles we've had out is that they perform very well for maintenance some downtime perspective so we do expect less scheduled maintenance and we expect less unplanned downtime. Now I think the unknown factor that everybody is still working on is what will the life of the batteries be because that that will dictate the costs of maintenance over the life of the vehicle. So you know as battery life improves, I think that's a real boost for maintenance as well. I think the prevailing wisdom says that, you know, maintenance costs will be reduced by anything up to 30% to 60% of where they are today with the traditional vehicle.”

Clevenger: “And while we see that there may be a lot of potential for electric trucks and in many facets of an operation there are a lot of challenges and question marks and a lot of that does indeed have to do with the battery technology. There is vehicle range but, you know, another important consideration is battery weight because the added weight, of course, can cut into the payload for a lot of longhaul and  tractor-trailer applications. And, of course, to get to that return on investment the vehicle price still has to be within a certain scope. So Julie, what do you see as the most important factors in ensuring that an electric truck does indeed provide a return on investment to the fleet that will be running them?”


Furber: “There are a number of factors I think, you know, you nailed a couple of them such as the cost of the battery itself is very important and we see, you know, you can find lots of charts which have varying degrees of how quickly that price of batteries is going to come down. I think the energy density is very important and again there's lots of adoption curves which suggest that over the next few years energy density may double, which will make a real difference to weight. So the size of batteries is also important. I think you know as we go forward the other things that are really going to impact the TCO are electricity prices, what happens to diesel prices. We just talked about maintenance costs but also the resale value of these vehicles, which again is going to depend upon the life of the batteries and how well those batteries perform. So I think you're right, there are still some unknowns that I think, you know, my sense is that the technology that we'll be working with within maybe five to 10 years’ time in electronics will probably be quite different from the technology we're working with today. It is a very immature marketplace and technology that we're working with and I think there'll be plenty of changes and we can already see new technologies on the horizon. So for Cummins we're very determined we're going to stay at the forefront of those technology developments and continue to look out, work with partner companies aware that technology may go. But I think we're at the beginning of this industry and I think that there's a way to go on all of those factors.”

Clevenger: “Now Julie, do you foresee emissions regulations being a significant factor in electric vehicle adoption or will this be based mostly on the business case?”


Furber: “So I think for some applications like bus, I think the business case is already kind of there and there's some sense in it but I actually do like for much of the last few decades emissions regulations are going to play a big part and I think the difference will be we may see local emissions regulations rather than more national regulations that we've been used to. So I think the role of regulation will be slightly different as well.”

Clevenger: “And is there a place for diesel-electric hybrids in trucking or do you see this going all-electric or maybe even pairing electric with hydrogen fuel cell technology as you discussed earlier to extend the range of the vehicle?”

Furber: “Yeah, certainly. I think there is a place for hybrids and whether how long that lasts really depends on advancements in battery technology. But right now for anything beyond 200 to 300 miles then really a hybrid solution is more effective than a fully electric; just a lack of charging infrastructure and the size of the batteries you would need to meet that range. So I actually think hybrids have got a very, very good place in certain areas of trucking. But then in the future, yes, we see hydrogen fuel cell technology playing a part as well. And I think, you know, for us we can be that one-stop shop for all those technologies and have the ability to be able to service and support those vehicles of any type anywhere in the world.”


Clevenger: “And, you know, just looking at the history of the trucking industry, diesel really has been the primary fuel for many decades now and that's unlikely to change anytime soon.

But, you know, we're now looking at several alternative power sources that have been introduced or at least explored. We have natural gas. Now we have a big push into electrification but which fuel, which power source do you see as the eventual successor to diesel and trucking? Number one, fuel. Do you foresee a day when battery-electric trucks are indeed more common on the road than diesel trucks?”

Furber: “So I think it will be a long time for linehaul trucks that battery-electric is going to be more prevalent than diesel. I think, you know, I can see a world where as you go into a city, most of the vehicles operate in that city will be electric or fuel cell and certainly zero emissions of some kind. So I think there'll be a variety of solutions. … And the customer's going to be in a great position because I think they'll have plenty of choice and they'll be able to choose the best technology that suits their application and the needs of what they're trying to do and their own objectives whether that's productivity, whether it's environmental sustainability, efficiency, whatever they want to do, they’ll have more choices than they have in the past. I think, you know, our aim is to give the customer what they need rather than just what we have, which is why we're making these investments across different solutions.”

Clevenger:  “Next up on RoadSigns we're excited to welcome Mike Roeth,  executive director of NACFE, the North American Council for Freight Efficiency. Thanks for joining the show.”

Roeth: “Yeah, it's great to be here. Thanks for having me.”

Clevenger: “Now, electric trucks have been a very hot topic over the past year or so in this industry. But let's try to separate the hype from the reality. So what do you think, Mike, you know how much of a place is there for electric vehicles in trucking. And how important is it for trucking executives to really be paying close attention to this?”

Roeth: “Yeah, it really is. What we've found, Seth, is that we've kind of gone from, ‘oh, I don't think electric trucks will be a thing. There's just too many challenges with them.’ Maybe there will be, too. I think in the last year now we're pretty certain we'll have electric trucks, even some being deployed right now so I think the industry and our findings in particular that we have moved from possibly to we will. But like a lot of technologies you don't know how big the saturation will be, you know, how many of the different applications and vocations are good for electric, which ones should stay diesel or even gasoline or even natural gas. So we're pretty certain that it will happen. And I think already that trucking executives are very involved.

[00:19:38] “I mean, one of the reasons we believe that it will be a solution that will be deployed in the next years is because, you know, really all stakeholders are after electric trucks. You’ve got startup companies, we've got the truck OEMs. But we also have, you know, things like electric axles and, you know, batteries that are more tuned for trucking rather than passenger cars. I'm shocked at even how the small fleets how knowledgeable the small fleets are on electric trucks so this isn't just a media splash, you know, occasionally we see that, but kind of the whole industry is after it.”

Clevenger: “Yeah, you're right, I mean it really is just about all of the suppliers and OEMs who are investing in this on some level and a lot of interest on the part of fleets. NACFE actually just recently published an in-depth guidance report on electric trucks, our timing's very good here. So, Mike, while you were conducting your research were there any comments or issues that really stood out to you over the course of that process?”

Roeth: “Yeah, a bunch of them. So, first of all, you know, all these technologies it's important to understand the duty cycle and really the fleet, you know, sort of business practices or business models because it matters, you know, sometimes if you have company drivers versus independent contractors or whether you're operating on the longhaul or in the city, in mountains, in hot temperatures, cold temperatures, all that matters for everything including tires, transmissions, the things that we typically see on diesel trucks.

[00:21:09] “But it matters even more with electric trucks and, you know, the biggest example is that, you know, we talk about range anxiety of a battery charge and, you know, it's not only the 10- or 11-hour shift that the battery needs support operation of the truck, or what I should say is that's what's going to happen, you know, enough charge to get through the day. If you look at diesel trucks or gasoline trucks, anything from Class 3 to Class 8, the fuel tanks are very inexpensive, the fuel you put in, it isn't that much and you're going to use it anyway so they'll put three days to a whole week or more of fuel on these trucks today. And so not only have the range anxiety we’ve got real range issues with the fact that the energy you're putting on the truck, you know, will only last a day versus multiple days. But there's a lot of other things we found in our guidance report. You know we were, we did 10 arguments on it, you can find that on our website, these were for and against and what we found is that, you know, people are really for or really against them. And we think things like cost and weight of the truck are actually better than a lot of people think. A lot of weight comes out of the truck, but things like charge times and a few other things continue to be real challenges and, of course, probably the biggest thing is getting the infrastructure to where they can charge the truck. That's probably the biggest challenge.”

Clevenger: “And we've discussed a lot of these different facets of really making electric work in trucking. But beyond the range and the charging infrastructure you also have to look at fuel costs, of course, you're no longer buying diesel but you probably are going to be paying a premium for the vehicle itself and you to consider the total cost of operation. So, Mike, if you had to just kind of pinpoint a few examples, what do you see as the key factors for achieving a return on investment with electric trucks?”

Roeth: “Yeah. First of all, I would say that the calculation that fleets need to do to understand the total cost of ownership or the, you know, the payback or the finances of running an electric truck versus diesel truck are really complex and much more complex than if you're trying to figure out wide base tires versus duals or whether you want to put a 6-by-2 on the truck, so that help for the industry whether it's, you know, nonprofits like us helping outline the various benefits and consequences and trying to help the industry monetize it or consulting firms assisting or others. That's a big challenge. But our work shows that, you know, the cost of the truck, you know, in some applications and duty cycles and really it's in the smaller delivery trucks, you know, so much cost and weight come out of the truck, the engine comes out, a lot of fluids of course after treatment. And in our guidance we looked at a Class 8 sleeper tractor, might have been a daycab and I can't remember. But there were 7,500 pounds of stuff that was in a diesel truck that was not in an electric truck and that shocked our team, I mean, it was a big number. And so the weight isn't as significant as we had originally thought.

[00:24:31] “And the cost of the truck is sort of better than we thought so when you think about that calculation of finances, you know, probably the biggest unknown right now is the charging stations. How do you find them? How do you work with somebody, how do you get the power to the  charger from the grid. All of those are big challenges for fleets. One of the things I haven't mentioned yet was probably our biggest aha, with this work is, how elegantly simple an electric truck is. That's what offers these weight savings and cost savings and maintenance savings because, you know, the truck is very simple. You know, hundreds if not thousands of moving parts go away and on and on. So that offers startup opportunities that offer a clean sheet of paper design on the truck side, offers a lot of indirect cost savings that I think can come out. You know, you think about a repair bay today with all of its, you know, hazardous materials removal equipment and on and on and on. And we've talked to some fleets that are seeing these electric trucks will be much more of like a white glove repair and a plug-and-play to computers checking default codes and fix in the truck. Very different maintenance and repair situation for electric trucks versus diesel and gasoline.”

Clevenger: “And I'm sure a lot of those fleet maintenance directors are excited about the prospect of getting away from some of the diesel aftertreatment systems that tend to cause a lot of headaches and downtime, and that's the possibility with full electric-battery electric trucks. You know, right now most of the truck makers are targeting applications like urban distribution and port drayage and refuse trucks as the first real-use cases for electric. But for electric vehicles to work on longhaul, we would need this network of charging stations across the country. So, Mike, what do you think is a realistic assessment of how difficult that will be to establish that and to really have a strong enough network to enable longhaul for an electric truck.”

Roeth: “Yes. With all due respect I think the way you ask that question is exactly one of the things we're learning about electric truck deployment. So yes, dreayae, urban city, even school buses and refuse, those applications that return home every night that stay close to the fleet's location. All those are real good reasons to deploy electric trucks. Now, they don't get a lot of miles so they're challenged with that payback because they get less, they burn less fuel and can save less fuel. Then there's the longhaul piece and what I think we're missing is something in between. And that's what we really come to learn is that day cab maybe 200- to 300-mile regional tractors, which is a growing segment. I mean, there is a finally, I say finally because I've been watching this for two to three decades, day cab production is up compared to sleeper production. We're seeing more hub and spoke in the distribution channels. This will not be something that changes overnight, but small move to day cabs we think from sleepers year over month over month, year over year. It helps get drivers home, which is another big challenge for the industry as we all know.

[00:27:49] “So I sort of think, and what we are finding with our work and we're going to do a series of guidance reports on electric trucks but we believe that a focus on the inner-city trucks as you mentioned while we're also focusing on really great day cab battery electric commercial vehicles for that 200- to 300-mile segment and then maybe, you know, yes, longhaul we need to keep thinking about but maybe put that off for another day and work on these battery-electric trucks here. That challenge of a national infrastructure charging stations is a really big one. So, you know, let's just … but I don't think that's needed for us to make tons of progress in battery-electric right now.”

Clevenger: “And also let's take a moment to consider the demands on the electric grid. If we do see large deployments of electric trucks at some point in the future will there be this higher demand for electricity and will it become a concern just from a power demand standpoint?”

Roeth: “Sure, we, you know, we, since the release of our guidance report, you know, May 2, a couple of good questions that have come up that, you know, are sort of, you know, flipping a coin right now. We just don't know and one is, how clean is the grid? So are we really well off if we’re  still using coal to produce electricity and, you know, there's a fast move to renewables or a relatively fast move to renewables and so does the adoption of electric trucks, map well with the adoption of renewables? And then also just the ability for the grid to get power and support it.

[00:29:25] “So far, our conclusions in talking to some grid experts and people in this area has been that it will likely be able to keep up. Now, of course, we asked the questions while we got brownouts and we got concerns in hot days and so forth, but with the electric grid already, so if we start charging cars and trucks what's going to happen? Well, yes, but there's ways to store it. There's ways to employ these renewables in ways that can support it. So kind of our current thinking on this and we'll update as we learn more is that, you know, this is America, investment goes where demand is needed and if we create the trucks and the charging infrastructure the grid will keep up. That's sort of our thought right now. And we'll keep updating everybody as we learn more.”

Clevenger: “And then, you know, just to close out I wanted to ask you the big-picture question. Mike, diesel has been the trucking industry’s main fuel for a long time now and it's not likely to change soon but do you think battery-electric is now the leading contender to eventually succeed diesel as the industry's primary fuel at some point in the future or do you think it might be another power source or fuel that we aren't discussing at the moment?”


Roeth: “Yeah, great question, and, you know, we all are working hard to deliver the goods every day so, you know, the industry kind of becomes a bit short in the short term, you know, and in the medium term and so there's not a lot of people thinking, you know, 10, 20, 30 years out and I think that questions asked, you know, in terms of 10 to 20 years out because I do think, you know, we’ll have diesel on longhaul for 10 years from now we'll have longhaul sleeper trucks that are diesel maybe less of them than today. But there will be battery-electric, I think there will still be natural gas in 10 years. But if you look even longer, you know a lot of experts, a lot of people, do see they want to move to renewable energy and electricity that then can be brought in transportation and that that has, you know, not only big long term as we work on all of these things we talked about long-term benefits and not only cost but in environmental improvements so yes, you know, I think it is. But people talk about bridge fuels and in bridging until we get there I think that's a really long bridge that will include, you know, gasoline diesel and natural gas. Maybe there's another bridge fuel. We’ve got biofuels and so forth. I think we'll have different fuels. But I do think electric offers a lot of opportunity and at International Truck we’re driving important changes in our industry. Take electric. We know there's been a lot of discussion about the future of electric-powered vehicles in our industry and it's not really a question of if but when. Electric could fuel commercial vehicles in the near future.”

Clevenger: “As we wind down, let's reflect on what we've learned about electric power in trucking. It's clear that manufacturers of electric trucks face many challenges. Battery technology must continue to improve and costs will need to come down. But the potential gains from fuel savings and reduced emissions are impossible to ignore. Electric trucks may also reduce maintenance and vehicle downtime. That being said, diesel trucks aren't going anywhere and truck makers will probably continue to build them for decades to come. So if we return to our original question: Will your next truck be a plug-in? The answer in most cases will be no. But in a few short years that answer might just be yes in certain applications such as refuse, urban distribution and similar use cases where the truck is back at the terminal at the end of the day and recharging overnight. From there, battery-electric technology can expand into other applications including regional haul. Then the expansion of charging infrastructure could open the way for electric trucks to enter longhaul. And you might just find yourself adding electric vehicles to your fleet sooner than you ever expected.

“RoadSigns will return in September to examine the potential applications for blockchain technology in the transportation industry. Until then, I'm Seth Clevenger. Thank you for listening.